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Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold – Meb Faber Analysis

Episode #430: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer – The Bull Case for Gold


Friends: Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer are mining executives that constructed Goldcorp right into a $50 billion enterprise. Ian is the previous Chairman of Goldcorp and Frank was a co-founder & Director of Goldcorp. Frank later based Lionsgate leisure.

Date Recorded: 7/12/2022     |     Run-Time: 52:36

Abstract: In as we speak’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most knowledgable within the house. The fellows focus on why the arrange as we speak mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold when on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out through the 1970’s and why they’re so bullish on gold as we speak that they began one other mining firm, Aris.

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Hyperlinks from the Episode:

  • 0:38 – Intro
  • 1:23 – Welcome to our friends, Frank Giustra & Ian Telfer
  • 2:12 – The primary olive oil on the earth Domenica Fiore
  • 3:14 – Frank & Ian’s connection within the gold house with Goldcorp
  • 6:48 – How to consider gold as we speak
  • 13:44 – The genesis of their new challenge, Aris
  • 16:31 – Ian’s philosophy for M&A
  • 26:34 – Is Gold’s sideways consolidation a great alternative for patrons?
  • 32:24 – International Asset Allocation
  • 37:58 – Twitter Ballot: How many individuals say they personal gold or miners?
  • 39:18 – Issues they’re desirous about as they give the impression of being out to the horizon
  • 45:12 – Their most memorable investments
  • 49:07 – Study extra about Frank and Ian: @Frank_Giustra



Meb: Welcome to “The Meb Faber Present,” the place the main target is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we focus on the craft of investing, and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.

Disclaimer: Meb Faber is the co-founder and the chief funding officer of Cambria Funding Administration. On account of business laws, he won’t focus on any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast contributors are solely their very own opinions and don’t replicate the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to

Meb: What’s up, my mates. We now have a tremendous present for you as we speak. Our friends are Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer, two profitable mining executives that constructed Goldcorp to a $50 billion firm. Enjoyable reality, Frank additionally began Lionsgate Leisure. In as we speak’s episode, we’re speaking all about gold with two of essentially the most educated and profitable operators and executives within the house. The fellows focus on why the macro set-up as we speak mirrors 2001, a time proper earlier than gold went on a giant bull run. We additionally contact on how gold carried out through the Seventies and why they’re so bullish on gold as we speak. They acquired the band again collectively they usually began in one other mining firm, Aris Gold. Please get pleasure from this episode with Frank Giustra and Ian Telfer.

Meb: Frank and Ian, welcome to the present.

Frank: Thanks.

Ian: Thanks.

Meb: I used to be simply remarking, it is a fashionable Zoom. So, fellas, inform us the place you’re situated as we speak. I’m in Los Angeles. Frank, the place are you?

Frank: I’m in France.

Meb: And Ian?

Ian: I’m in Ontario, about two hours north of Toronto.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, guys, we’re going to speak about all issues gold, macro, mining. However earlier than we begin, I acquired a query for Frank as a result of I’ve a package deal within the mail. It’s not right here but, so I can’t do a dwell style check, however I acquired some olive oil coming to my home out of your farm or out of your manufacturing firm. Give me a little bit preview. What do I’ve to look ahead to? What kind of makes use of? Is that this salad type of olive oil? Is that this cooking olive oil? Give us a little bit background.

Ian: Nicely, thanks for the free industrial. It’s known as Domenica Fiore, it’s named after my mom. I began making it about 12 years in the past or so, and it’s made in Italy in a spot known as Orvieto in Umbria. It’s rated the primary olive oil on the earth. And that’s not me saying that, that’s all these worldwide judges at virtually each competitors on the planet. Don’t use it for cooking. Please don’t use my oil for cooking. It’s far too useful. We name it ending oil, so use it for salads, dipping your bread, ending meats, pasta, soups, no matter. It’s ending oil. It’s beautiful.

Meb: I believe I acquired the sampler. Do you will have a favourite? I’m going to carry you to the fireplace.

Frank: The favourite is what we name the Novello Di Notte, which implies it’s new oil made at nighttime. We’re the one producer on the earth that harvest our oil very early within the season when it’s nonetheless actually scorching in Italy. And we harvest in the course of the night time, and it makes a world of distinction. Simply an unbelievable oil, and it’s a really distinctive, very restricted version, Novello Di Notte.

Meb: Very cool. Nicely, I look ahead to it. Let’s begin speaking about all issues mining and gold. You guys have labored collectively previously, sort of bringing the band again collectively. So, Ian, I believe I’ll direct this one to you. Give us a little bit origin story. You guys, what you’ve been as much as, after which we will get into what you guys are doing now.

Ian: As you stated, Frank and I am going again fairly a methods within the gold enterprise with the beginning up of Wheaton River 20-plus years in the past. And our imaginative and prescient then was to construct a brand new main gold mining firm. Though lots of people begin off with that imaginative and prescient, we really had been in a position to accomplish it. We had been excited concerning the timing, and we had been excited concerning the alternative, and we had been very proud of the way it all unfolded.

Meb: For the listeners who aren’t as acquainted, so my non-Canadian Australians, give us a little bit background. They could have heard the title Wheaton River, however what does that imply? Inform us only a actual fast overview of what that was.

Ian: Positive. Nicely, in 2000, Frank and I made a decision we should always attempt to construct a serious gold mining firm. And as we seemed round for alternatives, we discovered this firm known as Wheaton River Minerals, they usually had run out of ore, they usually had a little bit bit of money, they usually’d run out of concepts. And so Frank and I took over the board of administrators, put a little bit of our personal cash in, after which very aggressively went out and began buying belongings to construct a gold mining firm. And over the following seven years, I assume we purchased about 9 gold mines. And the market cap went from $20 million CAD to its…at its top, it acquired to $50 billion USD. It was an important expertise, and the market was enthusiastic about it, they usually had been very glad that we had been there to create one other car for the buyers. That was principally the story.

Frank: Nicely, most buyers would acknowledge the corporate as Goldcorp. It modified, and as we did considered one of our reverse takeovers was with an organization known as Goldcorp, which was already current. We renamed Wheaton River Goldcorp again in 2003 or ’04. And so in the event you had been to look it up, it was Goldcorp.

Meb: What was actually the principle worth driver? As a result of, I imply, that’s fairly dramatic…getting as much as a $50 billion market cap is just not chump change and that’s not a straightforward job.

Ian: There was a pair, one was the worth of gold. Our timing turned out to be completely impeccable. After we began on the journey, the gold worth was about $250. After which over the following s7 or 8years, it acquired as much as virtually $2000. In order that, clearly, we had the wind at our again. However secondly, we had been essentially the most aggressive, type of, agglomerator within the enterprise, and the market liked that. And so we stored buying belongings, a little bit bit like non-public fairness, besides we used fairness, we didn’t use a lot debt. So, placing the 2 collectively, the gold worth and the velocity at which we had been performing, that’s what actually created all the worth.

Frank: And we purchased some nice belongings to start with. And going again to what Ian was saying, at the start, when nobody believed within the gold worth, there have been only a few of us. Really, I wrote a thesis again in 2001 about what I anticipated gold to do subsequent. And at the moment, once I got here up with that publication, only a few individuals believed it. So after we had been on the market shopping for belongings, we had been shopping for extremely good belongings when fewer individuals needed them. And so it was…the concept was we chosen actually nice belongings and we acquired them early on and that gave us a giant leg up over everybody else that got here in later as a gold worth began to maneuver.

Meb: So, right here we’re, quick ahead. It’s now 2022, and we’ve completed a number of podcasts on gold and mining, however quite a bit on pure assets, specifically, farming basically, gold sitting someplace in that $1,700 zone. That is mid July. Frank, perhaps give us a little bit framework for the way to consider gold. We did a Twitter ballot the opposite day, or a number of months in the past, after we requested buyers, “Do you will have any publicity to actual belongings?” And so, which means simply all commodities, even REITs, TIPs, and most buyers don’t, or in the event that they do, they’ve little or no in a world of regardless of the inflation is as we speak. That appears unwise, however give us perhaps a little bit macro consideration about gold basically. The place do you assume we’re? The case for it, all that great things.

Frank: I believe that the sentiment is just not that dissimilar to 2001. We now have only a few individuals as we speak that imagine within the gold worth. They see it caught in a spread between type of $1,700 and $2,000, and never going anyplace, they’ve watched all of the cryptocurrencies undergo the roof, and the tech shares undergo the roof, and the beginnings of an inflationary interval, and the truth that gold hasn’t moved. And I believe that sentiment is every little thing in markets, and I believe it’s similar to how individuals felt again then. And the half that it’s good to give attention to is, who’re the actual gold patrons in as we speak’s market? And there are a number of traits that you must watch. And I’ve been writing about gold for over 20 years. I watch it very carefully, I write quite a bit about macro traits and what’s happening within the international financial system.

And you must simply take note of a few information. To start with, bodily gold is transferring from West to East. So China, India, clearly, the 2 largest patrons of gold persistently shopping for gold over the a long time and including to their reserves, particularly China. Russia, additionally. And whereas the west has been targeted on paper gold, after they have any curiosity in gold, it’s simply paper gold, which isn’t actual gold, by the way in which. If you happen to assume you’re shopping for actual gold, if you purchase gold ETFs, you’re badly mistaken. So the bodily stuff is transferring from West to East. And I believe that that’s one factor you must pay plenty of consideration to. Central banks…since 2010, central banks all over the world have been on a gold-buying binge. They proceed so as to add to the gold reserves. Their U.S. greenback publicity is slowly happening when it comes to their reserves, and their gold goes up. In order that they see the writing on the wall.

I believe in the event you had been China as we speak, with the way in which they have a look at making long-term selections, they’ve very long-term plans. They’ve been including to their gold reserves, and they’re going to proceed so as to add to their gold reserves, and for them to see the gold worth staying the place it’s, is completely fantastic. I don’t assume they’re having any bother with that. The U.S., however, the Fed and others, different policymakers disparage gold. They don’t need you to personal gold. They name it a barbaric relic, it’s not a forex. Nicely, in reality, it’s a forex, and each central financial institution on the earth is aware of it’s a forex. So I simply watch what individuals do versus what they are saying. And people are the 2 main issues you must watch. So I believe that we’re heading in the direction of some type of international financial system reset. What that’s going to seem like, who is aware of? It may play out some ways.

I wrote an article on this final week and I speculated that maybe it may go within the course of {a partially} backed gold forex use for settlement functions by nations that need to keep away from being sanctioned or expelled from the SWIFT system, U.S. SWIFT system. And so I believe that there’s a great probability that gold may play a job in regardless of the financial system reset is, just because all of the central banks already personal it, they’re buying an increasing number of of it yearly. The assumption system in fiat currencies is falling aside, and it’s falling aside all over the place. If you happen to have a look at what they’ve completed, not simply with the greenback, however the euro and the yuan, they’re destroying these currencies by printing trillions and trillions of these items. I believe since 2006, central financial institution reserves within the 5 main central banks have gone up 500%. They’re simply creating cash out of skinny air. And ultimately, you’ll be able to’t play that sport ceaselessly. And that’s why I believe the good cash, the long-term cash has gold publicity, and particularly the central banks.

Meb: After we have a look at it, I believe gold not performing recently is a little bit of a shock to lots of people we discuss to. And we are saying there’s sort of two huge quant components that actually are constructive for gold, one being detrimental actual rates of interest, which we actually have, and the opposite being an inverted yield curve, which we have now. And so, as we glance out within the horizon, let’s say we do that one other 12 months, two, or three, and we are saying, “Okay, properly, gold actually began to bull.” If you happen to may guess, and that is extra of a cheerful hour/espresso query, so…however what kind of catalyst…Is there one thing that you’d say is your more than likely guess as to what…is it a bear market? Is it extra crypto fraud? Is it some type of geopolitical one thing? What do you assume will trigger this to truly shift into bull mode?

Frank: I believe all of these issues that you just simply talked about will play a job, however I believe the largest, to me, will likely be when the Fed blanks once more. And going again to pre-2008, I began writing about what the Fed would do after the disaster of 2008, they did precisely that. They took charges to zero, printed some huge cash. Then Bernanke got here out and stated, “Nicely, you realize, no downside. We will normalize charges and we will unwind the steadiness sheet.” And I known as BS on that in a number of articles. After which as they began to boost charges, I stated, “They’re going to solely get them to this point, after which they’ll pause, clean, and reverse.” And I stated that in 2016 and 2017, and that’s precisely what occurred two years later. And I’m telling you, as we communicate, my view of it’s that there’s all this speak about normalizing charges proper now as a result of inflation is so excessive they usually need to get it beneath management, however they’ll’t. Mathematically, it’s not possible.

Anyone with a easy calculator will inform you that there’s a lot debt within the system, authorities, company, private debt is globally at $300 trillion, they’ll’t normalize charges. They usually know that, okay? So all this speak about these aggressive hikes, the way it’s going to get this beneath management, I believe by this fall…we’ll see, however my greatest guess is by someday this fall, they’ll clean, and they’re going to pause, after which they’ll reverse. And we’re going to return to zero ultimately. If the market continues to implode or we fall right into a deep recession, there’s one other geopolitical occasion, no matter it’s, they’ll discover an excuse for it. Final time was a pandemic. They’ll discover an excuse for it, and they’re going to pause. That’s, to me, going to be the catalyst that units the gold worth on fireplace as a result of I might assume by then, individuals are going to appreciate that they’re in an inescapable entice. They can’t normalize charges. It’s mathematically not possible.

Meb: Let’s begin to take a little bit stroll ahead to what y’all’s new concepts? What was the genesis of this concept? And provides us an summary of what you guys are banding up for now.

Frank: As Ian talked about, no, we acquired collectively…and I bear in mind I used to run an funding financial institution again within the ’90s, and Ian was considered one of my huge purchasers within the mining sector. And I bear in mind the day I resigned from the agency, I needed to step away from the business and do one thing else. So I simply walked away. However I nonetheless had lunch booked with Ian. We went to lunch anyway, and I stated, “Ian, you realize what? I don’t know what I’m going to do subsequent. But when I ever come again to the mining business…” that is again in 1996. I stated, “If I ever come again within the mining business, you’ll be my first name.” Scroll ahead 5 years later, I assumed…I got here up with the concept we would have liked to do one thing. I wasn’t fairly positive what, however I had my thesis on gold, and once I needed to create one thing, my first name was Ian. And we acquired collectively and we created Wheaton River, which ultimately grew to become two firms. So Wheaton River, which grew to become Goldcorp, and the spinoff, which was Silver Wheaton, the dear metals streaming firm, which is Wheaton Treasured Metals as we speak, which I believe has a couple of $23 billion market cap. That was Ian’s genius of that spinoff, in order that was an unbelievable success.

Then in 2009, proper after the disaster and the printing of cash began to happen, we created Endeavor Mining, which I did with a fellow named Neil Woodyer, who was considered one of our unique board members on Wheaton River, by the way in which. And we created a mining firm with mines in West Africa. Over time, we constructed it as much as about 5 completely different mines in 4 completely different nations, and it went as much as a couple of $3 billion, $4 billion market cap. Then in 2016, we did one other one, once more with Neil, this time in Latin America, that was Leagold. That was merged with Equinox, one other $2 billion or $3 billion firm. And after we offered Lea to Equinox, I knew…this was on the time when the Fed blanked again in 2019, they usually began to reverse course. I stated, “Okay, we’re going to be in for an actual gold market this time.” And this time they will be unable to tug it again.

And that is once I approached Ian and Neil once more. So now this time, it’s Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, myself, and a number of other others which were within the gold mining enterprise for a protracted, very long time, and we determined to create Aris. And Aris is the present firm with two initiatives, two very massive initiatives. And once more, it’s the beginnings of one thing. And the concept isn’t any completely different than every little thing else we’ve completed previously. It’s a buy-and-build technique. So, meaning utilizing our experience in M&A, and our experience with elevating cash within the capital markets, and our administration experience to know what belongings to purchase, what to pay for them, how one can repair them if they’ve an issue, how one can maximize worth. That’s the Aris story, which I’m a particular advisor to, Ian’s chairman, and Neil is CEO.

Meb: So Ian, how do you discover these particular belongings to purchase? Presumably, they’re not simply sitting on the market on a platter someplace. What’s the method, and the way do you guys sort of go about it? And inform us all of your secrets and techniques.

Ian: Nicely, as Frank says, the corporate is loaded with individuals which were within the business for a very long time. So we’re conscious of plenty of what’s happening on the market, we have now information of plenty of the belongings, we have now information of who is perhaps fascinated with exiting the enterprise, and we have now plenty of expertise as to how one can run these extra effectively. However to get again to your query, massive, good, gold ore our bodies are very uncommon. They’re very uncommon. And Frank and I, we acknowledged that 20 years in the past. Nicely, they’re rarer now. And so, looking for them is a problem, and discovering them is a matter, and competitors for them is all the time round.

So you must be artistic, you must take some dangers. And to this point, we’ve been very enthusiastic about what we’ve been in a position to do with Aris. Our ambitions are massive. The market has indicated over, and over, and over once more, they need some massive firms to put money into on the market. And each time a Goldcorp disappears into Newmont, properly, that creates a vacuum for another person. And in order that’s type of the impetus for us. And as I say, we’ve completed a few issues to this point, however we’re very bold and we’re very aggressive. And historical past tells us that the market will reward us for that.

Meb: The place have you ever guys began discovering properties already? Are these in Canada, U.S., Africa, Latin America? The place are you guys discovering alternative?

Ian: Nicely, to this point it’s been Latin America, and it’s been Columbia. So we’ve acquired two operations…one operation down there, and one other mega challenge to be constructed over the following three years, however we’re alternatives in different nations as properly.

Meb: As we discuss concerning the gold miners basically, would love to listen to a little bit perception from you guys as a result of there’s in all probability…in the event you had been to ask me, there’s in all probability no different sub-sector or business in my thoughts the place administration is extra necessary than in y’all’s world. And I really like the phrase “success leaves traces.” And so, gold mining as a sector, the shares haven’t been doing a complete lot for some time, however what are a number of the necessary drivers that the market, on a safety degree, actually seems for? Is it merely manufacturing multiples? Is it stability? Is it…? Simply discuss to us a little bit bit about if we had been to do that in 2, 3 years and we stated, “Hey, you guys have 10X, 50Xed this firm,” and we glance again, like, what could be the sort of huge drivers within the mining sector for you guys?

Frank: I believe…Pay attention, it’s a mixture of issues, and I’m positive Ian will add to what I’m going to say, however administration, actually necessary, particularly within the method that we take, okay? Administration is paramount as a result of it’s all about expertise, experience, and information. Mining, as you realize, is a really difficult business. You need to not solely fear concerning the geology and capital markets, we have now to fret concerning the safety, you must fear about politics, and all types of trade charges, one million various things. And in the event you haven’t completed it earlier than, you’re going to…certain to run into surprises. So, expertise is every little thing. In my view, and Ian in all probability can add much more to this, is there are solely a handful of individuals on this world. It’s not a giant business per se. It’s not like, say, the tech business or different industries. This can be a very small business the place the profitable ones, you’ll be able to rely ’em virtually in a single hand, perhaps two. To me, administration is every little thing.

And I believe we’ve assembled…if you have a look at guys like Neil Woodyer, Ian Telfer, and we have now Peter Marrone on the board, David Garofalo, Serafino Iacono. We now have all these folks that have completed all of it earlier than in their very own proper and have come collectively to do it collectively. Everyone brings a complete load of expertise to the desk. And that, to me, that’s what permits me to sleep properly is understanding that the corporate’s in good fingers. Everyone knows what we’re doing, everyone knows what our worth is in creating this factor. So, Ian, do you will have something so as to add to that? I imply, that’s the way in which I see it.

Ian: I completely agree with that. And the opposite factor I believe Frank and I understood again after we began with Wheaton River, and we perceive now, we all know how uncommon good ore our bodies are, and we’re not afraid to exit and pay as much as get them. And I believe there are too many individuals within the gold business searching for a deal or searching for a discount. We’re by no means searching for a deal or a discount, we’re searching for high quality, and I’m searching for amount. I believe individuals underestimate how a lot measurement issues within the gold mining enterprise. And if you wish to get the eye of institutional buyers, you higher present them you’re on a path to develop to be a major producer. And so Frank and I each perceive that. And once more, our expertise with Wheaton River, we went out for main belongings and needed to do main financings, however we had main success. And so we’ll be doing the identical factor again and again right here, however measurement is necessary.

Frank: That’s a great level. On that observe, so the 2 initiatives that we at present have in Aris, our possession that’s to our accounts already get about 10 million ounces of gold that’s within the floor that must be extracted. That’s plenty of ounces of gold as a starter package, per se. Okay. So, and the grade is sweet, it’s nice grade, and it’s 10 million ounces that we hope to mine for our account. The target, and if you say, after we look again, let’s say 3, 4, 5 years from now, what’s the target? The place are we going? We have to create an organization that produces at the very least one million ounces a 12 months of gold. That may put you within the ranks of an necessary gold producer on the earth the place the establishments need to personal you, you’re within the indexes, you’re in ETFs.

And that, once more, we’ve completed that a number of occasions and we’re properly on our technique to assembling the items, as we communicate, to get us to that million ounces a 12 months of manufacturing, the place you’re producing nice money circulation as a result of your value of manufacturing is affordable. And that, once more, we have now that in each of the operations. We all know that the numbers work in that regard. So in the event you get 2 million ounces, and you’ve got nice revenue margins, after which the third half is you get right into a gold market, then that’s the place you get your Wheaton River sort story that goes from tens of millions to billions in a short time.

Meb: Satan’s advocate problem for you guys, somebody who’s been there and been huge, after which now doing a youthful enterprise, if you go to speak with a challenge to be a purchaser, how exhausting is it? I imply, in a world you talked about earlier of low-interest charges and sort of accommodative circumstances and simpler cash, how exhausting is it to barter with a challenge when you will have perhaps somebody who’s a lot larger additionally searching for related initiatives? Do they worth you guys out? I really feel like that is virtually like a VC pitching a startup. How can you persuade a few of these initiatives? Is it actually sharp elbows or is it not a lot? Give me an summary of how deal cycle transactions go about or shut.

Frank: I is perhaps freely giving commerce secrets and techniques, however each scenario is completely different, okay? And so all I can say is let’s have a look at the final one we simply did, our most up-to-date acquisition, okay? We had been uniquely positioned…in that state of affairs, we had been uniquely positioned to be the appropriate purchaser for that asset to make it occur due to our nation expertise in that particular nation. And so, had one other firm are available in like a bigger, say, Newmont, no matter, they wouldn’t have had the identical native skill to work with communities, work with authorities, to make issues occur in that nation. They wouldn’t have had the identical information as our administration group did. So in each state of affairs, we don’t go into bidding processes. There’s an asset that goes up on the market, and it’s going by means of a course of by means of funding banks, we keep away from that. Ian and I hate that as a result of that’s not the sport we play. We discover very particular belongings that nobody else can get their head round why or the way you’re going to get it, and we do these as a substitute. I don’t assume we’ve ever been in a course of, have we, Ian, the place we had been shopping for one thing on another person?

Ian: No, no. We…

Frank: It’s not our sport.

Ian: We had been in a few bidding conditions at Wheaton River, however generally, we didn’t know we had been bidding in opposition to another person. We had been dealing immediately with the vendor and we put up our supply, after which afterwards, we discovered we outbid any individual by a penny, however we had no concept. However yeah, we don’t search for these conditions in any respect. The opposite factor that occurs is due to our expertise and our observe file, after we say we’ll elevate cash, we elevate it. After we say we’ll shut, we shut. We get plenty of alternatives due to that. Individuals know that we’re severe, and if we agree on one thing, it’s going to occur. And that’s meant that we get calls greater than most individuals about belongings which may be accessible as a result of individuals know they’ll cope with it.

The opposite factor, we’re extremely good at maintaining issues quiet. And that, once more, individuals admire that, that they’ll cope with us, and one of many firms that Wheaton purchased was Glamis. That was an $8 billion acquisition again at that cut-off date. And everybody was watching the gold house as fastidiously as they do, all of the analysts, all of the funding bankers. Nobody had a clue till we introduced it. After which after we did the takeover of Placer with Barrick, once more, big Canadian mining occasion, not a whisper available in the market till it was introduced. So we’re very pleased with these issues that we’d ship, and we will preserve a secret.

Meb: One of many challenges, but additionally alternatives by means of pure useful resource firms is the cycle. There’s growth occasions, there’s darkish occasions, there’s in-between occasions. And sort of it appears, and also you guys can illuminate me extra as a result of I’m not as in contact with this, however gold and the miners have sort of been oscillating type of sideways. Is that this a type of opportunistic, wealthy atmosphere? Like, are there plenty of distressed properties or individuals seeking to promote mines, or what’s the overview of type of the mining sector for a possible purchaser or vendor as we speak?

Frank: I wouldn’t say that it’s a distressed atmosphere. I’ll simply say it shortly right here, after which Ian can chime in, however I wouldn’t say it’s a distressed atmosphere by any means. I might extra classify it as a disinterest atmosphere. It’s very quiet, very inactive. The folks that personal belongings are sitting on them, there’s not plenty of capital funding getting in by those that personal. Once more, it jogs my memory of some 20 years in the past when it simply looks as if nobody cares in the mean time, which for us is nice.

Ian: Yeah. No, I’d agree with that. It’s a disinterested market. And the opposite factor about gold shares, the one folks that personal gold shares are folks that assume the worth goes to go up. Nobody buys a gold inventory for the dividend, and even for a retailer of worth. They purchase gold shares as a result of they assume the worth of gold goes to go up, and due to this fact the inventory will go up. And so, even when the worth of gold is down, and there’s no pleasure concerning the fairness markets, they’re nonetheless by no means low-cost. They’re by no means low-cost. They’re totally priced to as we speak’s gold worth. And so, you must actually have conviction both that it’s going to get larger or conviction that the worth of gold is definitely going to go up, to get in there and do a deal.

And that’s why, in my opinion, you see so most of the mid-tier producers that simply type of doddle alongside decade after decade and don’t do a lot, their inventory doesn’t do a lot, nobody’s enthusiastic about it as a result of I’d say they don’t have conviction about what they might purchase or what the worth will do. And in order that’s the place we’re a little bit bit completely different. However there’s by no means bargains within the gold enterprise ever, ever, ever. Frank and I haven’t discovered one but.

Frank: Not but.

Meb: Jogs my memory of native actual property right here in Los Angeles.

Ian: Yeah.

Meb: I’m an affordable bastard, and so searching for bargains in actual property close to the surf breaks has been an train in futility. So, we acquired plenty of each institutional and particular person buyers that hearken to this present. Discuss to us a little bit bit about how to consider placing cash to work within the miners. Was it one thing the place like, “Hey, simply go purchase an ETF and be completed with it,” or in the event you’re really going to get into the inventory choice, what do you have to keep away from? What do you have to search for if you’re sort of beginning to decide some safety choice names on this? Lots of people can get burned with inventory choice in any sector, however gold mining was one which I really feel like is fraught with locations to keep away from. Give us a little bit steering for these seeking to deploy some money right here.

Frank: I’ll go first right here. I believe you must begin along with your macro view of your portfolio. I imagine that, firstly, you must be diversified. So, meaning not placing all of your eggs in a single sector. Your mining portfolio goes to be a part of your general portfolio. Inside that…By the way in which, I additionally imagine we’re in a tough asset atmosphere proper now the place your general portfolio needs to be skewed in the direction of exhausting belongings, which clearly means mining firms. And never simply gold firms, mining firms basically. That is the way in which I do it. Then I have a look at my mining sector portfolio and I believe, “Nicely, what’s in there?” Nicely, clearly you’re not going to place every little thing into threat belongings, you realize? That’s dumb. So that you’re going to purchase…there’s some unbelievable alternatives proper now with the massive worldwide miners. The Rio Tintos, the DHVs, the Valleys, the Anglos, the dividends that they’re paying at present metallic costs are 10%, 12%, 13%, 14% dividends.

And in the event you imagine, as I imagine, that we’re in a multiyear cycle proper now, the place inflation will preserve these metallic costs elevated, then you must personal these. That’s your much less dangerous facet of the portfolio. Then you definately all the time have some cash for…if you wish to take the chance, you’ll have a look at firms like ours and say, “Okay, I need to purchase a development firm.” With development and ambition comes threat. So you must weigh that too, however that could be a portion of your portfolio. I all the time say that in these situations, you higher be good at inventory choosing or be getting nice recommendation from folks that know what they’re doing as a result of this business’s simply full of heaps and plenty of individuals with huge concepts and really low skill to ship. And so there’s heaps and plenty of these on the market telling nice tales that don’t really ever ship however inform nice tales. And so you must be very cautious. And so it’s all about administration, and you actually need to do your homework if you come to this finish of the chance portion of your portfolio.

Ian: Nicely, the one factor I might additionally touch upon, although, is you have a look at the observe file of the administration groups. As a result of what you do discover within the mining enterprise is identical individuals appear to have success over, and over, and over once more. And so in the event you’re investing with a gaggle of individuals, have a look at folks that have completed it earlier than and it’s labored out properly. As a result of have a look at, all these investments are powerful, all these mining operations are troublesome, however sure individuals simply follow it, and push exhausting, and get it completed. And so along with, as Frank says, various your portfolio, and searching on the belongings, and searching on the political threat, and searching on the geological threat, put some huge cash on administration.

Meb: It simply jogged my memory, so I simply posted a tweet actual fast, as a result of I like to ballot my viewers for sentiment and all types of issues, and it’s a great point-in-time indicator on all types of not simply market historical past, however how are you allotted? What are you doing? And the outcomes are sometimes shocking, and considerably miserable. We requested a few highlights the place we ask individuals, what was the largest after-inflation drawdown in bonds that they thought occurred in historical past? And most of the people thought it was 5%, 10%, and the reply to that’s properly over 50%, and different questions like that, however we’ll have to attend about 10 minutes for the outcomes to come back in, however I did a do you personal gold or gold miners portfolio? So we’ll see what share comes out of my viewers.

Nevertheless it’s humorous as a result of we did a ebook known as “International Asset Allocation” the place we checked out plenty of conventional asset allocation methods, and so long as you personal sort of all the principle classes, you are likely to do okay, however at one specific atmosphere actually stood out, and that was the Seventies. And also you guys acquired a little bit gray hair. Chances are you’ll be extra conversant in the ’70s, however many individuals investing as we speak haven’t invested throughout that atmosphere. It’s been a declining rate of interest, decrease inflation atmosphere, and never quite a bit helped within the ’70s. You personal plenty of conventional stuff, you bought taken sort of to the woodshed, however gold, clearly, was one of many huge standouts. Worth shares sort of helped higher than the other, nevertheless it looks as if you will have these cycles in historical past the place by the point that everybody has forgotten what kind of atmosphere…they’ve solely invested throughout a sure interval, it predisposes them to an atmosphere that didn’t exist. I don’t actually have any query, however do you will have any remark?

Frank: I believe I do know the place you’re going with this. And that is considered one of my favourite talks, is that this technology, those with the black hair such as you guys, weren’t round within the ’70s. I began on this business in ’78, Ian a number of years earlier than me. And…

Ian: Thanks.

Frank: …we all know what it was like. And I’ll inform you what occurred. Nicely, individuals neglect about bear markets, which this technology has by no means, ever, ever seen a bear market. I don’t know in the event you bear in mind the Nifty Fifties, the high-flying shares of the Sixties. Nicely, that every one led to 1969. Really, the height was 1966. 1969, it got here down actual exhausting, and it didn’t hit the outdated excessive till 1982. Okay? So that you had a 13-year bear market the place issues went like this, simply sideways. And also you had a number of recessions in there. The one issues that went properly had been gold, oil, actual property, farmland, all that stuff.

And folks neglect that we’ve been accustomed, we’ve been conditioned to imagine that you just purchase on the dips, that the Fed’s going to come back to the rescue, all of those silly issues that work for lengthy durations of time till they don’t work anymore. The 1929 crash, these shares by no means hit their highs once more till 1952, there have been plenty of nice rallies in between however neglect concerning the outdated highs. And folks don’t perceive that when a bear market actually units in, and the circumstances change, your entire atmosphere has modified. Now you’ve had this big debt bubble that has grown over the a long time. You’ve had this simple cash coverage, which has spoiled everybody to loss of life. Everybody’s had on line casino fever now for…for the reason that pandemic began. It’s all coming to an finish. This sport is over. What comes subsequent is anyone’s guess, however my guess is there’s a extremely good probability we’re going right into a bear market the place you must be far more selective than you ever had been. You need to have a look at the macro circumstances. And the macro circumstances have modified.

If we’re in what I imagine to be a stagflation interval, then you must decide sure shares. You may’t purchase what you had been shopping for two years in the past. And that’s what plenty of this technology, they don’t get it as a result of they’ve by no means seen it. To them, it’s all inventory market crashes in 2008, inventory market crashes in 1999, it recovers two years later, after which the occasion’s on once more. Nicely, I believe that this time is completely different. That is my perception. I could also be improper, however I believe we’re in for a bear market and a interval of stagflation.

Meb: Ian, any further perception? You already know, it’s humorous as a result of I didn’t publish this, however I used to be it the opposite day, concerning the size of time of what individuals assume the long term is, what they are saying it’s, after which how they behave. They behave on type of like that zero-to-three-year time horizon. They could say they’ve a longer-term time horizon, however they virtually by no means do. However we regularly ask like, “How lengthy do you assume really, like, shares may go with out hitting a brand new excessive in lots of a long time?” I imply, within the U.S., in the event you take it again far sufficient into the 1800s, it’s like 50 years or one thing on an actual foundation. However in the event you go down a listing, and listeners go do that, go take the 45-odd inventory markets all over the world, do it on a complete return foundation, so together with dividends, however look what number of have gone nowhere for 10 years to twenty years. Like, it isn’t an insignificant quantity. I’ll need to go simply do the precise writing, however there’s some which can be the identical place they had been 10 years, 20 years in the past, simply not the U.S., market cap weighted. We’ll see the way it performs out, however wrestle is the norm, I believe is a neater technique to say it. Ian, any ideas?

Ian: I can’t add to Frank’s view. I agree along with his view. After all, I can’t bear in mind the 1929 crash like Frank can, however I believe we’re in for a interval of down inventory costs in a bear market, and it’ll last more than anybody expects. And so it’s going to be a special world than we’ve all had for the final 20 years, for positive.

Meb: All proper. Who desires to make a guess? We solely have 200 votes to this point, however we’ll submit the complete. It often will begin to condense. It’s fairly shut. What do you guys guess the proportion of Meb’s followers on Twitter that personal gold or miners? So primarily based within the U.S., plenty of skilled buyers, but additionally I tilt a little bit in the direction of…

Frank: What number of followers?

Meb: A few hundred and one thing thousand, 100,000, however there’s solely been 200 votes this far.

Frank: Okay. My guess is 10% to fifteen%.

Meb: Okay.

Ian: I’d say the identical, 15%.

Meb: You guys will likely be astonished as I’m that 40% stated they personal gold or miners. I wager that comes down, and I wager perhaps it’s simply all of the Canadians and Australians who aren’t on trip proper now or one thing, they usually’re all voting as a result of this appears method excessive relative to what I might count on. As a result of the bizarre half is, I did this similar ballot and I requested about actual belongings, and virtually nobody stated they owned actual belongings. So there’s some type of dislocation right here. I don’t know what it’s, however perhaps everybody’s simply saying as a result of they personal S&P Index, they find yourself proudly owning a number of gold miners in there. I don’t know, however one thing is amiss. It appears excessive.

All proper. Nicely, we’re going to begin to wind down, guys. We’ve solely acquired in all probability 10 extra minutes to speak with you. As we take into consideration sort of the longer term and look out to the horizon, something we haven’t chatted about within the investing world, within the mining world, has acquired you significantly curious, frightened, excited, depressed, any broad emotion? Something that you just’re desirous about, something that’s maintaining you up at night time, or placing you to sleep, that we haven’t talked about? Something on the mind?

Frank: I’m wondering what this complete crypto collapse goes to imply for the remainder of the market, the economic system basically. I don’t assume the washout is completed but. It’s come off by two-thirds already, however I don’t assume it’s over but. It may do what the dot-com shares did again in 1999. You already know, by the point it was completed, they had been down 90%. Lots went to zero. And so we haven’t had the entire washout of the crypto mania but. And if it does come, I’m wondering…I’m simply curious if there will likely be a knock-on impact, and if it actually will have an effect on the remainder of the housing market, inventory market, the economic system. That’s the query mark for me. I don’t know the reply, however that might fear me a bit.

Meb: Presumably, and that is exhausting to quantify, however considering when it comes to type of the wind and the sails of valuable metals, about how a lot consideration, significantly with the youthful crowd, has been diverted for these looking for type of a secure haven mindset of two crypto sort of automobiles that in any other case might have gone to valuable metals. And so in some ways, I’m wondering if that might be a possible catalyst for a bull publicity to the miners, presuming they don’t additionally go down 80%, 90%, however seemingly that might be a constructive. Man, the quantity of fraud and scams and simply horrible conduct we’ve witnessed in the previous couple of years within the crypto house, actually, if not one black eye, it’s two.

Frank: I’m simply questioning whether or not they’re going to have any cash left to put money into gold or anything. That’s what worries me as a result of I believe that plenty of that crypto crowd, the hardcore guys are happening with the ship. They don’t care, they imagine. And so it’s not like they went, “Oh, whoops. We made a mistake, and time to change horses.” Clearly, the good merchants, and I had this debate a couple of 12 months in the past with somebody on this, an important debate on gold versus Bitcoin type of factor. And I used to be being advised by the particular person I used to be debating that every one the hedge funds and the good cash was going into Bitcoin, blah, blah. And I stated, “Guys, these are momentum gamers. The minute the momentum stops, they’re out they usually’re going to be driving another asset class. They’re not maxis. They don’t care as a lot as you. You guys…”

However there’s a very massive share of that crypto inhabitants that’s holding on and going, “We don’t care. It’s happening, ultimately, it’s going to go up and crypto’s going to save lots of the world.” And people are the oldsters which can be going to get fully, in my view, going to get fully worn out, they usually gained’t have any cash left to place it to one thing else. So I don’t know. This complete crypto factor is a extremely bizarre one and it’s…I don’t assume we’ve ever seen something prefer it in our lifetimes, and we’ll by no means see it once more.

Meb: Ian, something that’s in your mind recently?

Ian: Nicely, the one factor, and I don’t know very a lot about it, however I’m watching with fascination because the world tries to get off of carbon fuels and get extra electrified and digitized. So due to this fact that needs to be extremely good for copper, and you may learn an article a day on how we’re going to expire of copper any minute, and but over the previous three weeks, the worth of copper has collapsed. I simply don’t know the way the lithium, and the cobalt, and the copper are all going to do as we attempt to electrify the world. I don’t know how that’s going to get resolved, however there’s a big disconnect available in the market proper now.

Meb: And the ag house too. I imply, you’ve seen, traditionally, a number of the ranges of the costs we’re at now, though they’ve come down, create plenty of geopolitical unrest and also you’re seeing that. So you will have like a twin, each ag and vitality, stressor. Clearly, plenty of it’s taking place in Europe. Final go-round, it was actually plenty of meals insecurity in Africa, Center East, Arab Spring. Hopefully, it resolves itself, however typically that results in toppling of governments and regimes and every little thing else. However we had a current podcast visitor, Peter Zion, on, who had a a lot bleaker view for the autumn and sort of how that ag publicity might play out. So hopefully constructive, nevertheless it’s actually one thing that assets are much more entrance of thoughts than they had been when oil was buying and selling at detrimental future values a number of years in the past.

Frank: So as to add to the ag downside, you’ve acquired all this local weather change stuff that’s taking place, which is admittedly affecting agriculture all over the world. I wrote an article on this final 12 months on the results of local weather change on agriculture and agricultural output in behemoth nations like Brazil, you realize? Whether or not they’re excessive heats, droughts, floods…I imply, they’re taking place locations the place this stuff shouldn’t be taking place, they usually’re actually killing…It’s weighing closely on agricultural output. Now you’ve added this complete Ukraine warfare scenario, which as we all know, the wheat provides from Ukraine and Russia rely for about 40% of world provides. And the place’s that…who’s going to endure most? Nations in Africa, the Center East, these which were reliant on these exports.

And I agree with you. I believe that’s one thing to be very frightened about as a result of, as I wrote not too long ago, we will all go right into a extreme recession. I can take away your iPhone and your automobile, you’ll dwell. However I take away your meals, you’re going to behave in another way. You’re going to do issues that you just wouldn’t in any other case do. And that’s the place societies crumble. That’s the place you get the Arab Springs and different conditions. So I’d be very frightened about that too. And I simply hope it doesn’t occur as a result of it might be very tragic.

Meb: Gents, final query for you each. You may have a second to consider it, nevertheless it’s a query we ask all of our friends, and it may be good or unhealthy, however the query is framed, what’s your most memorable funding?

Frank: I’ve one, and it is a very useful lesson in timing markets or the failure to time markets. And when the dot-com bubble was taking place, I used to be wanting round and I used to be telling all people who listened to me that this was madness, that there was no foundation for the valuations of those tech shares, and that it will definitely would implode. And so I shorted, and I can’t bear in mind why I shorted this specific tech inventory that was buying and selling on the NASDAQ, however I learn what it was, and it was nothing. It was primarily based on some future potential, perhaps this may occur or that’ll occur, Venus will align with Mars, and all this stuff that to me had been mumbo-jumbo.

And also you had these massive funding banks, Wall Road funding banks, writing studies with these loopy projections, going, “This…” So I began shorting it and I stored going up, and I stored getting margin calls. And I used to be going, “Okay, I can’t go for it.” So I stored placing up margin, placing up margin. The inventory went from $12 to $30 to $40 to $80. And I used to be going, “This will’t go on ceaselessly.” I finally bailed. And I believe I couldn’t…In any case, I misplaced a lot cash…I can’t bear in mind. I imply, it was $110, $120 a share. It went to $200, after which it went to zero. And I nonetheless misplaced some huge cash.

Meb: Shorting is so exhausting. Markets can go bananas. I imply, the current examples final 12 months was with, and nonetheless ongoing, however a few of these meme shares that took down very massive brief sellers. The timing on shorting is tough, nevertheless it’s a great lesson, and also you don’t neglect that one. I’ve had my expertise there. Ian, what do you bought?

Ian: My most memorable was at one level within the early ’90s, Robert Friedman was making an attempt to rent me and I wasn’t positive, and I used to be hesitant. And so he simply began throwing alternatives my method. I lastly agreed to go and be part of him. And as a part of that, he stated, “Nicely, I’ll make you a director of diamond fields.” And I’d by no means heard of diamond fields. And so I acquired inventory in diamond fields at 15 cents, I acquired choices at 18 cents. And in order that was nice. So the inventory made it to $5, and I assumed I used to be a genius. So after all I offered it. I made sufficient cash to construct a waterfront home in Vancouver, however then the inventory went to $150. In order that’s considered one of my most memorable investments.

Meb: We did a submit on this. I’m making an attempt to assume when it was and the title of it, nevertheless it’s primarily speaking about how one can plan for funding outcomes. And the one which most individuals take into consideration is, okay, what occurs if this inventory begins to go down, or at what level do I promote if issues go poorly? However we regularly inform individuals, we are saying, “You need to…” and that is clearly a a lot better downside to have. “You need to mentally put together for the way are you going to deal with an funding that’s the reverse, that does very well?” So a 5-bagger, a 10-bagger, a 100-bagger. And most of the people by no means had these as a result of what occurs is that they promote after the 1-bagger. They, “Oh my God, I purchased this, it doubled. I purchased Aris, it doubled. I’m going to go purchase a brand new automobile. I’m going to go on trip, yadda, yadda.”

However the energy legal guidelines of investing the place you make some actually huge wealth is each inventory that turns into a 10-bagger or a 100-bagger was as soon as a 1-bagger. And so there’s plenty of methods to consider that. I believe individuals don’t wish to assume within the binary phrases of…they wish to assume when it comes to in or out, however perhaps simply promoting a little bit might be one answer to keep away from the emotional ache of remorse minimization there on the precise huge winner. That’s nice, guys.

Nicely, look, fellas. I might like to preserve you all day, however all of us want to maneuver on. We’d like to have you ever again and watch what you guys are doing sooner or later. If individuals need to sort of sustain along with your firm, what your ideas, your writings, your farming merchandise you’re placing out, the place do they go? What are one of the best locations to maintain up with you guys?

Frank: I’ve acquired a weblog,, I write for the Toronto star each couple of weeks, I write a column on often macro points and different issues, and you may comply with me on Twitter. That’s often the place you’ll get my messaging.

Ian: For me. I’m not on social media, I don’t write a column for anyone. You’ll have to simply control bulletins for the assorted firms I’m concerned in to see what I’m as much as.

Meb: Go hike across the Canadian wilderness, discover you in a cabin. Good.

Ian: Precisely proper.

Meb: Gents, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to hitch us as we speak.

Frank: Meb, that was nice. Nice interview. Thanks.

Ian: Yeah, Meb, thanks very a lot.

Meb: Podcast listeners, we’ll submit present notes to as we speak’s dialog at If you happen to love the present, in the event you hate it, shoot us suggestions at We like to learn the opinions. Please evaluate us on iTunes and subscribe to the present anyplace good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, mates, and good investing.



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